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Have you ever wondered whether you got the job on merit, or because someone needed to tick a box?

It's a question that follows many disabled performers into every audition room, and in this episode, two of the UK's most exciting puppeteers say it out loud.

Michèle Taylor talks with Natalie Kimmerling and Lucy Thorburn, both performers and puppeteers with limb difference, both veterans of the National Theatre's War Horse, and, it turns out, more connected than either of them realised.

In this episode, you'll hear:

• The “tick box” fear. Natalie explains why she has turned down roles and how she still wonders whether a compliment is real or pity. Lucy shares the moment a leading West End director admitted the problem exists, and why it made her emotional.
• The audition that went right. What happened when Lucy walked into the Baby Joey audition and met a team who talked openly about access.
• Giving your body to the puppet. Lucy's idea that disabled performers are “the Queens of adapting” changes how you'll think about puppetry. Michèle wonders whether that makes them better at it.
• Why time and money matter. Natalie explains how a lack of rehearsal time meant she could only work one part of Baby Joey, and what theatre must change so the puppet fits the performer, not the other way round.
• A surprise nobody saw coming. Lucy reveals that Natalie's costume alterations quietly paved the way for her own, and neither knew until this recording. 
• Slow producing and access. Where the industry is getting it right, where it isn't, and why disabled people shouldn't always be the ones starting the conversation.
• Joyful moments. From taking family backstage to the school tours where a young disabled audience member's face lights up.

Thank you for listening. For further information and to get in touch with us please visit our website HERE.

Ramps on the Moon Podcast is hosted by Michèle Taylor. MBE, Director for Change for Ramps on the Moon.

Michèle takes the Ramps on the Moon podcast straight into the engine room of mainstream theatre. Across all episodes, she chats with actors, directors, producers and chief executives to uncover the joys, the tensions, the breakthroughs and the lessons in placing disabled people at the centre of cultural organisations.

Michèle shares the realities of the ‘now’ and what the future can hold for disability equality in the arts with Anti-Ableism weaved into every part of an organisation.

If you'd like to be considered as a guest on this podcast, or have a subject you'd like Michèle to talk about – please contact: zanna@rampsonthemoon.co.uk 

This podcast is produced and managed by Podtalk.co.uk