INT:	Welcome to the Ramps on the Moon podcast.  I’m Michele Taylor.  If we don’t know each other yet, I hope we will soon.  I’m the Director for Change for Ramps.  A consortium of mainstream theatres putting deaf and disabled people into the heart of their work on and off stage.  Ramps on the Moon is giving the industry the valuable support it needs just to do it.  This includes making our award winning touring productions that reflects society back on itself and challenge audiences on what to expect.  How do we do this?  Listen to the podcast.  Welcome to this episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast.  We find ourselves back in Leeds in the recording studio in Leeds Playhouse and this time I’m sitting in the studio with Dan Bates.  Dan was chief exec at Sheffield Theatres until very recently and is now executive director at Bradford City of Culture.  How exciting.  How is it so far Dan?  How long have you been there?
RES:	Thanks Michele, yes it’s really exciting.  1st of December I started.  So I left Sheffield on the 30th November and started on the 1st December, so it’s been a full on journey, there is no doubt about that so.  Our City of Culture is in 2025 so it feels like two years away but -
INT:	That’s quite soon.
RES:	It is now quite soon.  It’s actually 100 weeks.
INT:	Away?
RES:	Away.
INT:	Wow.
RES:	So yes.
INT:	As we record this.  Fantastic.  And when, it’s 2025 is that literally the calendar year of 2025?
RES:	Yes, 1st January 2025 to 31st December 2025.
INT:	Fantastic.  Watch this space.
RES:	Yes, absolutely.
INT:	Can’t wait.  Dan, I’m really looking forward to talking to you about organisational change about embedding disability equality within an organisation, and I wonder if we could just look back to 2015 to pre-Ramps on the Moon, because of course Sheffield Theatres has been a founding partner of Ramps on the Moon.  If we could go back to 2015, where would you say, how would you characterise Sheffield Theatres’ position with regard disability equality, disability issues?  Your sensibilities around all of that stuff.  What, tell us about Sheffield Theatres around that time.
RES:	Yes, it’s a really great question and it’s really quite nice to kind of go back and reflect isn’t it, actually?  I mean when you think what’s happened between 2015 and now, you know the world has changed so much.  So I suppose, you know, going back to my role in Sheffield, I would have been in post two or three, a few years by that time and I think we were, I could probably describe the organisation as really kind of caring about access and access provision.  Really, really focussed on audiences and perhaps might be, you know, being absolutely honest, maybe sort of focussing on being compliant or doing what we should be doing, but perhaps not being as proactive as we could be.  So we were, you know, we were making sure that we had interpreted performances and captioning etc. but, but actually it was more about making sure we had audiences and everybody could come, as opposed to a kind of proactive approach that we might have now.
INT:	I’m really interested in that.  Why did it stop there, do you think?  Because, okay it’s a leading question because I know, you started off your response by saying you’re an organisation that cares and did care, so I know it’s not that you didn’t think it was important, that you didn’t care.  What, what was it about, what prevented you from going further than that?
RES:	I think for me perhaps it was a little bit of a lack of understanding.  Of actually how many people might have used our services, or needed our services.  Not fully understanding, really focussing on like visual impaired, or hard of hearing people but you know the obvious like wheelchair accessible things, items like that but not really thinking about the whole kind of breadth of disability.  And so, so and but, you know I don’t think we had, you don’t always know by the way, but if we had any disabled staff for instance.  So I think we were just generally about kind of compliance I think and, so you know, we were in the middle of a, we’d done the capital project, we were in the middle of, always doing capital projects, always about improving our buildings and accessibility and ramps, all that kind of work so it was like lots of tick, tick, tick and maybe there was a feeling that, we’ve done that now.  And I think it was just about those, how now it’s like, how would we have taken that further.  And how could we have taken that further.
INT:	Yes.  So is that where Ramps on the Moon came in?  I mean when you got the opportunity to have conversations about being a part of the consortium, what was it that made you go, “Yes, we’ll do this.” 
RES:	Well, first of all when Sarah Holmes rings you up, you a) take the call and b) I mean I think Sarah’s kind of passion, her kind of fanatical-ism, I don’t know if that’s a word.
INT:	Fanaticism?
RES:	Yes, she’s, let’s just go with flat passion I think for, passion for inclusivity across everything and you know, we, I have a sort of strange competitive edge, maybe?  You know, we always want to be the best, and actually when you look at kind of inclusivity and access, you know you look at Wolsey at Ipswich.
INT:	Where Sarah Holmes was chief exec at the time.
RES:	Where Sarah was, yes.  And you know, in kind of incredible work and actually, for Sheffield Theatres to be a little bit part of that, it was just sort of irresistible and I felt like, I felt that Sheffield Theatres in terms of its scale, the fact that we have three theatres was, you know there was a different kind of opportunities that we could bring to the kind of table really, and I just felt what was the really exciting thing about Ramps on the Moon and Sarah’s conversation, I remember that pacing up and down the office talking to her, it was a long call, and I just remember thinking, “Wow.” This, you know, this is going to take us from making sure we were tick boxing, I mean not just tick boxing basically, so that you know, like we do an interpretive performance of this, we do this blah, blah, blah, we’ve got ramps we’ve got this and but actually, this is more about taking us to a much, much further level, so thinking about how could we have a disabled performer on stage.  And we’d had maybe, you know occasional visiting companies as well, but how could we, how could we make a fully accessible performance?  And I thought that was a real, kind of really exciting opportunity for us.  But then it was also thinking about having an Agent for Change, so having a staff member could have been disabled, but having a kind of a different view, having a, someone with that lived experience.  Kind of supporting that kind of work again.  I mean it seems so obvious now we’re talking about it.  It’s like, maybe I didn’t -
INT:	It kind of does, doesn’t it?
RES:	It does really, it’s like maybe I didn’t need Sarah, but actually but actually how Sarah and the Ramps on the Moon and that kind of catalyst for change is kind of, is kind of dramatic so what I think.  So it was, it was like a number of opportunities, but I was sort of quite led originally I think by the opportunities for work on stage.
INT:	Right.
RES:	Because I felt, you know in a simple A to B journey that was like the next stage, but actually it was far more than that.  Because of the change, because of the Agent for Change.  Because of the kind of opportunities, because of the kind of peer group in the Ramps on the Moon partners.  Because of the kind of resources, meeting amazing people like you, for example Michele, just because you’re here I’m saying it.
INT:	Oh just because I’m here you’re saying it.
RES:	No.
INT:	Thanks Dan.
RES:	But actually we might not have met had we?  We might not have met.
INT:	We had, and as you’re talking I’m remembering the first time, no the second time we met actually.  The first time we met was in a Ramps on the Moon meeting.  The second time we met, I came up to Sheffield.  I say came up to, because I travelled up from Nottingham.  So I came to Sheffield and we had a meeting in a room in the Lyceum, which of course presents all sorts of physical access challenges, which is interesting.  We had this meeting in the Lyceum and, is this fair Dan?  Is this fair?  I felt like you were quite nervous.
RES:	Oh yes.  
INT:	What were you nervous about?
RES:	I think, well there’s peer pressure isn’t there?  Yes.
INT:	But you’ve got a competitive edge.
RES:	I know, yes it’s a good point.  I think, didn’t you come to like a, our access group meeting?
INT:	I did yes.
RES:	And it was a, you know it was a big turnout as well.
INT:	Yes, it was.
RES:	Had special guests as well.  But it was, it was yes, I think it was just sort of really interesting trying to get a little bit of kind of assurance of you know, what I thought we were doing was okay, like would it be okay?  I was also kind of quite nervous that, there’s a kind of confidence isn’t there in dealing and talking about disability, if you’re not disabled, and the kind of fear of saying the wrong word and, and I was kind of thinking, yes so I was nervous, but I was also nervous for our staff as well just in case they were feeling nervous.  If that makes sense?
INT:	No, absolutely.
[00:09:57]
RES:	Feel like take it all on.  Take on everybody’s nerves as well. But yes it was, and it felt like a big kind of first step of the journey and I think also not everybody kind of got what Ramps on the Moon was, and part of me was also about kind of slightly deliberately wanting people to find their way, to find their place and kind of in that process as well.  But yes, nervous was a good word.
INT:	So that was a really huge step for you to take then?  To embrace, embrace this, this possibility of being part of the Ramps on the Moon consortium.
RES:	Yes.
INT:	And yet it feels obvious as you say, in retrospect, why wouldn’t you have done that.
RES:	Yes, and actually, when we talk about our fully accessible building, we had it in the one room that isn’t.
INT:	Yes.
RES:	Like, the irony.  You know.
INT:	Yes.
RES:	I mean it’s just that whole kind of, you know that’s a really good illustration about why we needed Ramps I think.  Is that we felt we were okay.
INT: 	Interesting.
RES:	But actually, you know really interesting there was another discovery like that, my last week at Sheffield Theatres.
INT:	Oh really?
RES:	Yes.  Yes.
INT:	And you’re not going to say any more are you?
RES:	Not yet no.
INT:	Okay, fair enough.  Fair enough, moving on.  What were you hoping for?
RES:	With Ramps on the Moon?
INT:	Yes.
RES:	Gosh yes.  I was hoping for some change.  I was hoping for you know very simple, I think my objectives and you know, we talk about this Michele haven’t we?  In sort of reports and evaluations isn’t it you know?  Our objectives were a bit basic in the beginning. Was just -
INT:	They really were.
RES:	They really were.  It was just about improving and it was about numbers and kind of, you know, but quite low numbers of things as well.
INT:	Yes.
RES:	So I think, I wanted it to move from kind of compliance to a much broader discussion about accessibility and kind of openness about a kind of shared understanding about the fact that audiences are kind of critical for theatres, obviously.  But so are performers.  So are creative teams as well.  And that kind of broad mixture. 
INT:	And I think what I’ve seen, if I may?
RES:	Please.
INT:	What I’ve seen is I’ve seen Sheffield Theatres take the values and the ethos and the aspirations of Ramps on the Moon and fold it into who you are as an organisation,  I’m saying you, Sheffield Theatres, who Sheffield Theatres is as an organisation.  So the Ramps on the Moon ethos has become part of the identity and the aspiration and the ambition actually.  I’ve seen a real kind of tethering between, well if we want to be, if we want to make the best theatre, then Ramps on the Moon is part of that.  It has to be.
RES:	Absolutely.  Absolutely, it went back to you know real kind of going back to like values and beliefs and about what’s right and what’s important to us as an organisation.  And you know, and the incredible when you move on from an organisation how much you forget quite quickly, but was really, really important but you know one of our missions and values was to create bold and brilliant theatre and to make it for everyone.  Oh, I remembered.  And, but actually we then talked about well, what does everyone mean.
INT:	Yes.  And what does bold and brilliant mean actually, as well.
RES:	Yes.  We were comfortable with bold and brilliant, but actually, where we felt that we weren’t doing was everything, if we want and so you know, so we had lots of kind of discussions about well, is that for everyone?  And can everyone come to that as well.  So that was a really kind of big kind of catalyst for change as well.  And the other thing about Ramps which I think is kind of important because it was, we were, it was a six year program?  I mean it was changed to seven wasn’t it because of Covid and stuff.
INT:	Yes, that’s right.
RES:	But there were six partners weren’t, and I remember saying to Sarah, I said,  “Could we go last?”
INT:	Oh to make the show?
RES:	Yes, to make the show because I knew that we were on a journey and I just felt like I wanted to learn from others and I just knew as an organisation we should be, go towards the end of it because I mean, I definitely wouldn’t have wanted to have been the first.  Because we at Sheffield Theatres were not ready for that.  And you know, we just did it last year, recently, in 2022 and you know, we were just about ready.  No, we were ready, we were ready.
INT:	And it was a great show.  Great reviews.
RES:	It was a great show you know, still struggling with Covid weren’t we?
INT:	Yes.
RES:	Still everyone is struggling with Covid as well, but yes, it was a great show.  And I’m pleased but I felt like we were, we were ready and we had learnt so much from others as well.  So it was, it was a really exciting project and I did leave the organisation feeling incredibly proud that a) we’d done it and b) that it was a success kind of artistically as well.
INT:	Yes.
RES:	But it’s also what it’s left in the organisation and that kind of understanding and the kind of, the care and attention for people such as, you know just from, you know sort of basic level of meeting and greeting someone at the station?  Never occurred to us before.
INT:	That’s great.  Just that detail.
RES:	But, quite important, you know.  And understanding and the you know, the rider?
INT:	The access rider.
RES:	Access rider as well, you know is you know, what does someone, you know what is someone’s needs who are disabled with access rider?  But also asking me what my access rider was.  It was like, ooh yes, what do I need from you?  So it was a really interesting kind of dialogue as well.  So I kind of thought that was pretty, pretty special.  And it’s things like we have a, things like at Sheffield is you know, there’s a sort of general love of dogs you know, and -
INT:	That came out of left field Dan.  Where are you going with this?
RES:	Where am I going with this?  This is like, we have this like thing.  It’s like so hard with dogs and, but so we had lots of support dogs.
INT:	Oh I see, okay.
RES:	You know, so you go to the stage door sometimes and it felt a bit like a kennel.  And, but actually it was just like, wow you know, I’ve never said like, “Let’s have every dog.”  You know, it’s sort of, I mean I think we probably have a sort of no dog policy kind of thing, but you know, but actually that’s out of the window.  But because you can’t, you know they are support dogs so get, you know that’s fine.  But I just thought actually, our staff are just like embracing this and so they’re looking after dogs.  And no-one’s asked them.  Well I haven’t.  I didn’t send a memo.
INT:	How is everybody with dogs?
RES:	Yes.
INT:	And I want to come back to, she says desperately trying to pull this back.
RES:	Sorry.
INT:	That’s fine.  That’s fine.
RES:	Always expect a bit of random.
INT:	Random Dan you will now become.  You’ve mentioned the word change a lot.  And you’ve talked about Agent for Change and there’s going to be another whole episode where we’re going to really interrogate what that, what that role is about.  But talk if you can for a bit about the early changes that you went through at Sheffield, and what were the things that were significant in enabling you to make quick, kind of early, meaningful change, do you think?
RES:	Yes, yes that’s.  I think it’s kind of initially was employing an Agent for Change, working with you actually on the recruitment for an Agent for Change, because we had a few as well over that kind of time.  Then there were real, again, probably feels so basic but actually, we’d done some basic training.  Disability awareness, even the model work that you had done as well.  But also having just, you know we did a bit of a sign language sort of, sort of 101 for people, you know basic you know so we could sign our names and welcome people a bit more.  We did some visually impaired training as well and that was, for me that was one of the real significant, all the training was excellent actually, but that was the one, because we were working with an Agent for Change who was visually impaired, so actually to wear representation of glasses that that person could see.  So actually it was putting yourself in that person’s shoes as well was really quite profound for me.  And you know, you know Michele, everyone here knows but not all our listeners might not know but, the Crucible has a very funky carpet.
INT:	Very funky.
RES:	Very funky carpet which is really part of the design that goes back, you know it’s the 50th year of the Crucible and it’s all about clear walls, white walls and a funky carpet and, wow if you’re visually impaired that’s not easy.
INT:	It’s a bit of a nightmare carpet, isn’t it?
RES:	It is a bit of a nightmare.  And again, that’s a kind of big challenge for the organisation.
INT:	Because there’s a lot of it.
RES:	There’s a huge amount of carpet.  And I don’t know how much it was.  And, but yes.  So again it’s that interesting thing about design over accessibility as well so that’s sort of by the by.  So I think it was the kind of training, but it was also kind of continual kind of awareness, and also I think, because we’d had the Ramps to the Moon shows visit, you know as part of our co-production kind of opportunity, so we met more disabled cast and creative teams as well, and then I could suddenly see people, re-employing people, not just for Ramps shows.
[00:20:18]
INT:	Right.
RES:	outside of the Ramps sort of cycle as well and were were suddenly doing more shows that could include someone with a disability and not shouting about it, it was just an actor.  Actually, just an actor who by the way happens to be disabled.  So that was happening a lot more.
INT:	So that’s starting to be embedded change then, rather than oh this is the Ramps piece of work.
RES:	Yes.  Yes.  And we worked with, you know different creative teams as well and again it was just really outside of the Ramps cycle and I think that was a really great kind of step change for the organisation as well and again, I remember I think it was Tommy, when Tommy came, so going back a bit, and we had our, another show that was in the studio at the time, as well which had some two or three hearing impaired actors as well, and we had the Ramps on the Moon party arrive and we did a kind of meet and greet and, honestly it was an amazing, we did it on stage, I mean I don’t know how we did it.  There was a lot of people all on stage, a lot of dogs again.
INT:	I knew you were going to come back to dogs.
RES:	There were dogs, there were people everywhere, but you know a really proud moment was when my team signed their names.
INT:	Wow.
RES:	Yes, and that was like wow, that was quite special actually because I was like, “Ooh.”  You know and people, lots of people were just doing sign language again on their, a little bit on their own and learning and you know at the photocopier and there was a little, you know the alphabet signs so while you’re waiting for it, and while you’re waiting for your tea there’s another one there as well.  So it was a kind of constant little kind of important reminder as well.
INT:	Nice.
RES:	But that was very special, and that kind of welcome you know.  You can’t, I’m terrible with languages.  I did my French O’ level, German O’ level that’s it you know.  So I’ll go to France or Germany now I can understand everybody, I daren’t speak a word.  But you know, and again that’s not great is it?  But I could sign my name now.  Although I’ve been doing Pan instead of Dan for ages.
INT:	Who told you?  
RES:	Jackie corrected me.
INT:	Hi, I’m Pan.
RES:	Who was my assistant.  I’m Pan Bates.  But anyway, but it’s very similar isn’t it?	
INT:	Yes, it is.  It is.
RES:	Yes, so anyway.  Where were we?
INT:	As far as, where were we?  A slightly tricky question I guess.  Is there anything in the last seven years with your Ramps on the Moon journey, is there anything that you could think Sheffield Theatres, you Dan could have done better?  Or you wish you hadn’t done?  What’s gone wrong that you can talk about?
RES:	I think it’s, there’s always something unfortunately.  And I think it is about just having, having the, you know, being able to have like a discussion and kind of talk about it.  There’s lots of different from equipment breaking down.
INT:	Right.
RES:	You know, sort of again, quite impactful kind of opportunity, you know like if you’ve come for a captioned performance and the caption doesn’t work, you know?
INT:	Yes, that’s a problem isn’t it, really?
RES:	And that’s awful.  You know, and how to kind of manage those kind of situations as well, or we had loads of, we had a little string of interpreters not turning up. 
INT:	Oh wow.
RES:	Not through any fault of their own, naturally, through some little bit of processes which, you know we ironed out and then you know, when lots of things are across lots of different people you kind of focus it into individuals and support as well, so we needed some big changes in how accessible performances were managed, you know through the box office rather than through a different department.  So we had some kind of real kind of issues like that.  Some of them about were a little bit about barriers that we didn’t know were barriers, does that make sense?
INT:	Yes, it does.  Yes.
RES:	You know like a, something that I think is a really simple process or a process that I fully understand, for someone else can be perceived as a barrier as well, so it was sort of understanding kind of some of those, some of those things as well.
INT:	So being, being open I guess, remaining open to somebody saying, “This doesn’t work for me.”
RES:	Yes.
INT:	And you being willing to go, “Okay.  Okay we’ll look at it.”  Instead of, “Well no, it’s easy.”
RES:	Yes.
INT:	“Why don’t you get it?”
RES:	And I think that was, that was quite a big turn around for some of the teams as well in terms of kind of understanding that and it was, it was another example where someone really struggled with the, not the hearing loop but the infrared thing to sort of supplement you know, and just could not get loud enough for that person.
INT:	Right.
RES:	And again, I think perhaps pre-Ramps we’d have been, “Look, there’s nothing we can do.”
INT:	Right.
RES:	But actually, that person came in two or three occasions outside of the performance, worked with a team, worked on different kind of solutions you know, and it was like, “What happens if we turned it up to the max?  It actually does, how does that affect other users?” You know there’s all that, you know really honest kind of conversations.  And that was like one to one as opposed to, so it was individual I think, and personalised as opposed to deaf people, if that makes sense.
INT:	Yes, yes.  Absolutely does.
RES:	But you know, I just sort of sat from afar and just watched that care and attention and thinking, “Well that would not have happened with us in the past.”
INT:	It’s that phrase again.
RES:	Yes.
INT:	Care and attention.
RES:	And you know, and ultimately we couldn’t resolve it for that person because their hearing loss was so bad.  So we encouraged them into different ways and actually using the captioning.  That was the solution in the end, but they felt happy that they’d had that kind of opportunity as well, and actually captioning opened a whole new, new thing for them.
INT:	Great.
RES:	Which was good.  So I don’t know if that answers the question.  I’m trying to think of, I think it was, I think sometimes we as people or we as organisations don’t allow enough time.  I’m trying to think what I mean about that actually.  So I was just sort of thinking about, I remember Rob who was the artistic director at Sheffield, great colleague as well and he won’t mind me saying this, but he’s always late for everything.  And all this kind of stuff, but what he said when he was rehearsing Much Ado about Nothing is the fact that you know, you normally have a break and it’s 15 minutes.  But you know, he spends 15 minutes sort of getting feedback from other people and kind of in the cast that you know, something just sort of helping him and guiding him as well.  So it’s just sort of, in that period of time there was a lot more kind of discussion and lots more kind of focus, so he couldn’t necessarily do his other things.  So normally on tea break he’d come and talk to me and we’d sort of do a bit of planning for something else and all that kind of stuff, and that’s a really small kind of example, but actually when you think about planning for work like a Ramps on the Moon show actually is, is planning for longer.
INT:	Yes.
RES:	Or different kind of focussing times as well.
INT:	And what I’m struck by is that Rob took the time to be available for people to have those conversations and give him that feedback and didn’t say, “Sorry I’m on a tea break, I’ve got to go and talk to Dan about next season’s program.”  Or whatever it might be.  So he, he took that time.
RES:	Yes.
INT:	Which is really, yes that’s really interesting isn’t it, for him to change his practice in that way.
RES:	And I think that’s quite important practice anyhow actually.
INT:	Yes.  Well, and how often do we say that?  How often do we say, “You know that change that we made?  Or that tiny tweak?  Or that enormous change in approach and we did it because there were deaf and disabled people around.”  But how brilliant is that for so many more people?
RES:	Absolutely, and I think that’s you know, going into my new job from Sheffield, you know because I’m like dealing with like a backlog of stuff.  So I’m literally going from one thing to the next from a different city to different city.  All this kind of time, you know and actually it’s not, I’m not feeling like I’m making myself accessible.  Does that make sense?
INT:	Yes.
RES:	So I feel like I’m accessible to everybody, but actually I’m not necessarily like some of my new team are like, “This is like a bit frantic and we’re not actually having any time to do anything with Dan.  Because he’s like flit, flit, flit.”  It’s the same with my co-colleague Shanaz as well.  We’re just like running around.  And I suppose I was thinking that if, what could I do to make more time for people.  Disabled or not disabled.
INT:	Sure.
[00:29:58]
RES:	Particularly thinking about a disabled person.  Thinking about a hearing impaired person or someone, or anyone in essence.   Just to, they might see me you know, yes I just think it’s, this is not really making any sense actually, but I think it was, for me was actually thinking about, again it’s about your actions, are your actions making you accessible for people?
INT:	Yes.
RES:	And actually -
INT:	It’s a great question.
RES:	Just saying, just saying to someone, “Yes you’ve got 20 minutes with Dan.”  Just might not be enough for that person.
INT:	No.	
RES:	Because of an ability, or disability but that’s sort of the way the cookie’s crumbling at the minute.  And it’s got to stop.  If that makes sense.
INT:	Wow.  Again, watch this space.  Interesting.  That’s so interesting.  You’ve given us so many specific examples which is just brilliant, of change that’s happened at Sheffield Theatres.  What have been some of your proudest moments?
RES:	There’s a lot of pride.  Definitely.  I think, I mentioned like the meet and greet for Tommy all those years ago.  I mean the meet and greet for Much Ado was the same, better maybe. More people.  More understanding as well.  It also felt like, “Oh my gosh.  We’ve got people here.” You know, and it was quite a struggle with we’re still dealing with, everyone’s dealing with Covid, their own feelings about, is it safe to come out to work, all that kind of stuff and actually, you know it was a long old journey to get there and suddenly everyone was there, there was that kind of sense of relief as well, so that was a pretty proud kind of moment.  I have that sort of other examples I’m thinking of when something just happens at Sheffield Theatres that you don’t know anything about, but a group of people have got together and you’re like, “Oh that’s just happened.  That’s new.  That’s good.  And that’s been, access has been considered.”
INT:	Again, embedded.
RES:	And you didn’t have anything to do with it.  And I love that.  I love that kind of feeling.  “Why didn’t I think of that.”  so I think, I think they’re kind of pretty proud, so I think the kind of team they have at Sheffield Theatres and the changes that they’ve kind of been through as well, but with Ramps on the Moon you know, we had a lot of support, a lot of training, we met incredible people all in this room now.  You Michele, Sarah Holmes, the kind of team at Ipswich.  A lot of kind of peer to peer kind of learning and sharing as well, so that makes me all proud.  But we also, you’ll remember Michele you and I went off on, we’ve done some training together haven’t we?
INT:	We have.
RES:	With People Make it Work Change Creation and we went on our roadshow of all the Premier Inns it felt like.  
INT:	Yes we did. 
RES:	Premier Inn tour of the partners kind of across the country as well.  And we had a sort of a team meeting with a senior team, didn’t we, talking about a theory of change and what being part of, you know what could that organisation do.  It was, I am not a trainer, you know I’m not a consultant I’m someone who does stuff for organisations, you are a professional trainer, professional consultant as well so it was a really interesting kind of debate.  And it was very privileged for me to be a) in that situation with you, but also in the sort of inner sanctums of other theatres.
INT:	Yes, everybody was really generous, weren’t they?
RES:	Yes.  Yes.
INT:	Welcoming us in and taking the invitation that we presented them with to look at what it was that they wanted to do and were doing with regard to Ramps on the Moon.
RES:	Yes.  Yes, absolutely really, that was kind of special I think and actually, you know we learned a lot.  But there was no sort of, “Dan’s coming in from Sheffield.  Be careful.”  Kind of thing.  So I think that was pretty proud.
INT:	And if you had to say one thing to the leader of a theatre organisation.  So thinking, yes really thinking specifically about leadership actually, because I have, I have such respect and admiration for you as a leader, Dan.  I think your leadership is just wonderful.  So thinking specifically around leadership, and you had, if you had to say one thing to the leader of a theatre organisation about embedding change.  Because organisational change is such a huge area to think  about.  It’s so important, it’s been so important and continues to be to the whole Ramps journey.  But what, what would your one piece of advice be about this really helps you embed change?  Or don’t do this to embed change.  What would that advice be?
RES:	Gosh.  Putting it into one thing is I think impossible.  I think it’s about empowering your team.  I don’t think it should be from top down.  I think you might need to give a bit of direction and steer or maybe initially you’ve got to be a bit like that to kind of set the stall out.  But to allow people to do it.  Just kind of set the structures to allow that to happen as well, to sort of move away from, for me it’s always been, what I like to talk about is a lot of cross departmental working.  So that, get the right people together in the right room, not necessarily the right hierarchy or you know the people that do it.  Get them together and allow that to happen.  And allow for some mistakes because we all make them.  More than others.  And we, but to allow, just to allow that kind of change to happen, so you’re not part of everything.  So you want to kind of give direction or give sort of perimeters maybe is the best way of saying it.  But allow people to do it and let them get on with it as well.  And I think if I had my time again with Ramps, just reminding myself I think I perhaps kept too much of it myself at first and no-one quite got it.  So actually when we had that nervous meeting that you describe, the kind of kick off meeting, I don’t think everyone knew enough about it.  And actually one of the longitudinal thing about Ramps being six, seven years is that you know, people at the beginning of the journey, it’s quite different to people at the end of the journey isn’t it?  A dramatic shift kind of in organisations as well.  So yes, making sure that you’re not losing that knowledge with the person.  You know, and I feel like with Sheffield, we’ve got Ramps on the Moon advocates across the whole organisation you know, and I’ve left now and can now do that in Bradford, if that makes sense.
INT:	Yes.
RES:	Start that journey and it’s also start the journey from day one.
INT:	Yes.
RES:	You know, you gave me a good note the other day, which I took on board.  Still learning is the fact that actually, you know I’m starting in Bradford we’re starting a team from scratch.  You know, we had a team of three people and we will have a team of more people.  60, 70, 80, 100.  Who knows yet.  And but yes, I’m like, “Yes I’m going to do some training you know when we’ve got a few more people.”  But actually probably need to do it now, and do it again in two months time.
INT:	And again.
RES:	And again.  Never stop.  Never stop but yes, it’s actually that, that whole kind of thing really but, I don’t know if that answers your question about my one tip.
INT:	Oh it does. No it really does.
RES:	Because there’s a few in there, but I think it is about, it’s not about being a controlling, more enabling.  I mean ultimately you need a bit of control obviously, but that’s your job and that’s what, the power you’ve been given, but it is about being an enabler and allowing things to happen.  But trying not to let them drift.
INT:	Brilliant.  Let things happen, try not to let them drift.  Brilliant.  Dan, thank you so much for your time, given how you are really battling against it at the time.  I mean at Bradford so thank you, really appreciate that, it’s been so interesting and enlightening and helpful I think, to get your perspective from there, from the Sheffield journey.
RES:	No thank you as well, and I mean I just, you know we go back to that Sarah Holmes phone call and you know, you know Ramps on the Moon you know was a time and a place absolutely needed.  Still is needed.  The work hasn’t finished.  I think in some organisations, practices have really, really improved and opportunities but, it needs to continue.  It absolutely does, because you know it’s not just about theatre is it?
INT:	Well, exactly.
RES:	For me it’s about everything.  Everything that we’re doing and every decent organisation should have really strong understanding about accessibility and understanding of each other, of our staff and we’re not all the same and that’s really important.
INT:	And on that note.
RES:	And on that note.
INT:	Thank you Dan.
RES:	Thank you.
INT:	Thank you for listening.  You can contact me through the link in the show notes.  Or through our website RampsontheMoon.co.uk.  Ramps on the Moon is funded by Arts Council England and is made up of six mainstream theatres; Birmingham Rep, Leeds Playhouse, Nottingham Playhouse, the New Wolsey Theatre in Ipswich, Sheffield Theatres and Theatre Royal Stratford East and our associated, Wiltshire Creative and the Regional Theatre Young Director Scheme.  This podcast is the copyright of Ramps on the Moon.  Ramps on the Moon cannot be held responsible for any mistakes or omissions.  This podcast is made for entertainment purposes.  And finally, we’d like to thank our friends at podtalk.co.uk for producing this podcast.
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