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Michele Taylor		eleanor and sean

Episode 5 – Producing and accessible show with Eleanor Lang and Sean Brooks from Theatre Royal Stratford East

Date Transcribed:	31^st March 2023
Interviewer(s):	      	Michele Taylor
Respondent(s):	Eleanor Lang and Sean Foley

MICHELE:	Welcome to the Ramps on the Moon podcast.  I’m Michele Taylor.  If we don’t know each other yet, I hope we will soon.  I’m the Director for Change for Ramps.  A consortium of mainstream theatres putting deaf and disabled people into the heart of their work on and off stage.  Ramps on the Moon is giving the industry the valuable support it needs just to do it.  This includes making our award winning touring productions that reflects society back on itself and challenge audiences on what to expect.  How do we do this?  Listen to the podcast.  
	Welcome to this episode of the Ramps on the Moon podcast.  I’m in my home studio once again speaking over Zoom to today’s guests.  So I’m a middle aged woman, I’ve got short grey hair, I’m wearing round, red glasses, a blue/turquoise-y jumper and very large headphones and I’m talking today to Eleanor Laing and Sean Brookes from Theatre Royal Stratford East.  One of Ramps on the Moon’s founding partners.  
	Eleanor I wonder if I could come to you and ask you just to introduce yourself for us please?
ELEANOR:	Yes, absolutely.  I’m Eleanor Laing, I’m the executive director of Theatre Royal Stratford East.  I’m a white late 30s woman with gold earrings and a green cardigan.
MICHELE:	Thanks Eleanor.  Sean, what about you?
SEAN:	I’m Sean, I’m the deputy producer here at Stratford East and I am an early 30s ish man wearing a blue shirt and a Cher t-shirt.
MICHELE:	Do you believe?  Brilliant.  Thanks Sean, thanks Eleanor.  So the reason I really wanted to talk to you both today, the thing that I’m really interested in is producing work and your, you both have slightly different relationships with producing work.  Your roles are slightly different.  And I know that you’ve recently, of course, had Village Idiot rehearsing in the building so I’m really interested to talk to you about that.  But more generally about how producing work has changed at Stratford East as a result of your Ramps on the Moon journey.  So I’m going to ask you, Sean, the first, fundamental question; what does a producer do?
SEAN:	What an excellent question and I’m still trying to work it out myself, I think.  The easiest definition I can give is a project manager.  I would say that, as a producer, your role is the overseer of a project and you’re the person that people come to with all their questions.
MICHELE:	Wow thank you.  Thank you for simplifying in that way for us.  That’s brilliant.  And when you talk about project management, if we’re talking about a show that you’re making at Stratford East and that is going on tour, what is the project that you’re managing, what is the scope of your responsibility I suppose, is what I’m asking.
SEAN:	The scope is huge I would say, and I often kind of split up the project as it were, into different sections.  You have your theoretical thinking about what the project is, and then once you have some more solid ideas about what that project is, you then move into the sort of the admin period where you do budgeting and contracting and working out the, building the foundations for the project.  Putting the team together and then you kind of move into the rehearsal period where you hope some of the foundations you’ve laid are strong enough.  And then you continue building on that as you move into the production itself, and then there’s always a post-production bit as well, which I think or often people think, forget to think about which is about evaluation and de-briefs and summarising how the project went.  So the scope I would say, is pretty huge.
MICHELE:	That is huge isn’t it?  If the show’s going on tour, what’s your responsibility for the tour?
SEAN:	So then it’s often a lot of liaising with partner venues and ensuring that information is spread to all the partners and everyone is aware of what is happening and when.  Inevitably, troubleshooting some issues that may arise.  I mean, for example, with Ramps specifically, all of our venues are very different.  So a lot of the stuff is ensuring that the design of the show fits into everyone’s venue.  Similarly about making sure the team can travel around to all of the venues, and when they get to the venue, what everyone’s internal policies and procedures are.  So it’s I think, a big part is ensuring that information is relayed clearly and concisely to everyone.  And making sure you know it as well.
MICHELE:	Yes, of course.  And what’s your favourite bit about producing?
SEAN:	That’s a good question, and it varies depending on the project.
MICHELE:	Oh does it?
SEAN:	It does.  I think for an example, if you’re working with an established group of creatives, it’s exciting to see them do their craft.  Whereas if you’re working with emerging artists, it’s exciting to see where they end up.
MICHELE:	That’s an interesting perspective.
SEAN:	Yes, looking at the, the final product I suppose is where my thrill is, and seeing the artist achieve what they wanted to achieve.  That’s what I get my kick out of, I think.
MICHELE:	Nice, nice.  Thank you.  And Eleanor, at your theatre, what’s your relationship with the producing process?
ELEANOR:	So mine’s, mine’s varied I think over the years that I’ve been here.  But often it’s kind of at the initial stages, so Nadia our artistic director, will be thinking about what she wants to put on our stage and I have those quite early conversations, really around building a season.  Often building a year’s worth of projects, so very lovely, fun conversations, “Well if you really want to do a big show with 16 people, then your next show has to have three people.”  And also kind of often, working with her and working with our director of marketing as well to say, well we think that will really sell.  Actually, that show feels like it might sell better if we put it into the Spring slot than trying to do it right after Christmas.  So kind of working in that kind of planning way, I guess which pulls together sales and scheduling and resource.  And trying to have that kind of longer, strategic view and also I think talking with Nadia a lot, and with Sean and Catherine our senior producer, about these are the things we might like to do later.  So if we want to commission something new, do we need a workshop this year?  Something that we can build in a couple of years time.  So that kind of slightly longer view of what would we really like to, to think about.
MICHELE:	That makes sense.  So your perspective is much more of a helicopter perspective as opposed to Sean and Catherine who are getting involved in the, in the detail of the day to day work of the project.  That’s so helpful, that’s really, that’s really clear thank you.  And I guess inevitably I’m interested to ask you both, given your complimentary perspectives, and Eleanor maybe we can start with you.  If that season involves using disabled or deaf performers, if that season involves using disabled or deaf creatives or if you’re embedding access, how is that factored into your planning and your decision making would you say?  Does it alter anything?
ELEANOR:	I think the big learning throughout for me, and I think the team generally from being part of the Ramps project is that, it doesn’t necessarily alter it, but it has to be part of your thinking.  Like the earlier it’s part of your thinking, the easier it is.  And that, sometimes that’s about people really understanding the practical changes that you then have to make.  So actually, you might have a director whose really keen to make sure that we have a really, that we’ve got disabled people in our cast but then they need to have had the conversation with the designer, so that the designer is designing something that will work for whatever the needs are of the people in the production.  And actually, what you don’t want to do, if the designer is working early and your casting is late, you might suddenly end up in a situation where you thought, “Oh we haven’t actually taken into account this.”  So I think from my perspective, what has probably changed is that we’re having those conversations earlier and making sure that they are thought about, you know when Nadia is talking to a new director about a show, that we’re talking about having disabled people on stage or back – or in the creative team and what that might need and does that need a longer rehearsal process?  What is the implications.
MICHELE:	And how is that kind of conversation received, generally?
ELEANOR:	I think really well.  I think, I think one, I don’t feel like there’s a resistance to it, I think there’s a lack of thought.  So once you start the conversation, I think people are quite engaged in it, but I don’t necessarily think with everybody, that’s their immediate go to.
MICHELE:	And do you think that Stratford East is getting known as a theatre where you’re likely to have that conversation?
ELEANOR:	I don’t know.  I’d love to be able to say yes, but I think if I was really honest, I probably wouldn’t and I think that’s partly because, actually the pandemic, we worked in a very different way for two years.
MICHELE:	Of course.
ELEANOR:	So I think perhaps that, where we were building pre-pandemic kind of stopped because all work stopped and we weren’t employing anyone at one point.  And we’re now re-building that.  And also because, actually, we’ve only got one auditorium.  We don’t make, you know we only make four shows a year.  Would love to do more but again, because of pandemic finances that’s reduced slightly.  We’re just not having that many conversations.  So I don’t know if we’ve got enough of a track record and we’re talking to enough people to be able to honestly say that’s what people think of us.  But I would hope that that becomes it.
SEAN:	I would, if I can, I would also say that, because I also work as a freelance producer, actually there are emerging artists and, you know mid-career artists that are already having those conversations.  So I don’t know whether it’s about Stratford East as a destination for that, because a lot of venues are already starting to have those conversations themselves.  So with an emerging generation of artists, that’s already starting to be ingrained into people’s practice, so it’s almost, there’s an expectation that they should have those conversations when they go to whatever venue.
[00:10:10]
MICHELE:	That’s interesting.  So that’s not just disabled artists, that’s artists generally?
SEAN:	Absolutely.  Absolutely.
MICHELE:	And what do you think started that impact Sean, have your got a sense of that?
SEAN:	I think there’s just a wider, growing knowledge and understanding of disability I would say.  And I think different media has helped that, whether that’s disabled representation on TV, whether that’s Rose in Strictly Come Dancing.  But also a wider conversation about who is telling who’s story and representation of people in stories and what those teams are.  So I think there’s just an increasing sense of awareness around it, I would say.  I think, obviously lots of people are still getting it wrong necessarily or are still on their journey to understanding certain things.
ELEANOR:	If I can just add to that, I think there’s also growing change in what people, in people’s abilities to talk about, or are having to talk about different types of disability.  So not you know, I think when I first started working in theatre, we didn’t have relaxed performances.  You absolutely did BSL and audio describe and captions, but actually all of the conversations around neurodivergent challenges have risen, I guess and I think that means there are a lot more people who are prepared to talk and say, “These are my needs and these needs, I want you to incorporate them.”  Perhaps than there was 10/15 years ago.
MICHELE:	That’s really interesting.  I mean, I know from talking to all the Ramps partners, for example, that I think pretty much every single partner is reporting an increase in the number of members of staff who are talking about being disabled.  And that’s partly accounted for, for sure, by new members of staff who are disabled.  But it is also significantly accounted for by members of staff who have been around for a while starting to feel more confident about talking about being disabled and having access requirements.  So that’s really interesting to see that as a trend across the industry, both within buildings and amongst freelancers, Sean as you’ve just talked about.  It’s really encouraging actually.  It’s a really great direction of travel.  You know, even if it does feel frustratingly slow at times, it’s a great direction of travel.
SEAN:	Definitely.  I think it is still very frustratingly slow because there’s still a lot of work to be done, but also I was going to say as well about actually there’s developments within technology that seem to be aiding creative access in terms of the actual equipment now used for captioning and audio description is getting better and becoming more, you know relatively inexpensive, and so actually in a few years time the idea of everything being a financial barrier hopefully will be decreased because these developments in technology are really changing the way that you can integrate access into a performance artistically.
MICHELE:	Yes, and that’s really exciting, isn’t it?  Yes.  We’ll talk a bit more about that in a minute, but I want to come back to that question, and ask you a similar question Sean, that I asked Eleanor a while ago which was about, if you’re working with disabled performers or if you’re working with embedded access or if you’re working with disabled creatives, what from your perspective, from the kind of day to day perspective of the project management to pick up on your phrase.  What of that if anything feels different when embedded access is considered of when you’re working with disabled people?
SEAN:	I think as Eleanor mentioned, just a more openness to share when someone has a requirement.  At the start of our projects we’ve started sending out a form, essentially like a ways of working/access rider form that we encourage people to fill in and having those from the outset of a project, you already know where you are and you already know what you need to do for the rest of the project, with the understanding that people’s requirements change and -
MICHELE:	People’s awareness of their requirements change.
SEAN:	Absolutely.  Totally.  And often what I’m finding, people will put their requirements and then realise additional stuff in the room, or they haven’t disclosed other stuff that have become apparent so it’s a, it’s then a continuous conversation and I think, as producer/project manager, is then your duty to kind of have those regular check-ins to make sure that everything is still appropriate for everyone.
MICHELE:	And Sean, do you have any top tips?  Are there things that you’ve learned around making your rehearsal rooms, making your production spaces places where people feel comfortable to talk about their access requirements? 
SEAN:	It’s an ongoing process because, similarly I’m also finding that, when people complete their ways of working form, sometimes they’re apologetic that they have requirements or anything, and you think you don’t need to apologise, this isn’t a judging document this is to ensure that we get the best out of you and you feel that you can do your best work in an environment.  I think, I don’t know whether there is such a thing as a perfect environment for everyone, because everyone has such different needs and requirements both disabled and non-disabled so you’re never, I think you’re never, ever going to achieve a Utopic rehearsal room, sadly.  I think my advice would just be to make sure you’re communicating with the team and you’re hearing and understanding what they need.  From a producer point of view I think patience is a big thing because invariably you’re going to get things wrong and you’re going to have conflicting access requirements that you’re going to need to balance.  But I found that if you’re open and honest and transparent with people that’s one of the biggest hurdles.  So once you get past that, and everyone’s laid their cards out effectively, you then can put a plan of action into place.  The worst thing you can do is kind of bottle it up and then panic and, and then it just exacerbates and gets worse and then you’re serving no-one’s requirements so, patience is a big one.
MICHELE:	I think there’s such an important point that you make about you want to get the best out of people.  Because if you’ve cast someone, if you’ve contracted someone, if you’ve commissioned someone, you obviously think they’re the best person to play that role, whatever that role might be.  So of course you want them to do their best work.  So it’s in everybody’s interests.
ELEANOR:	And I think also we, like we’re so aware this applies to disabled and non-disabled performers that performers are very exposed on stage.  You are, you are asking a lot of people so I think as an organisation, it is our responsibility to get them in the best possible place to do something that, you know I, you couldn’t pay me any money to do what they do.  And I think, you know, we need to make that experience as good as possible.
MICHELE:	Yes.  That’s so important isn’t it?  And I mean I know that I get really excited when I look at all the work that our Ramps partners are doing.  All the disabled people that they are employing in making work and facilitating work and in the participatory work and I think about people doing what you’re doing and creating an atmosphere where those disabled people can talk about what their access requirements are.  And I’m thinking those people are subsequently, so after that particular project has ended, they’re going back into the industry more empowered to talk about their requirements and what, what a really important influence that is all having on the industry.  And so it kind of takes us back full circle to that whole notion of that conversation is becoming more normalised.  And that’s really exciting.  So I know neither of you was directly involved in the producing process of Village Idiot, that’s right isn’t it?
ELEANOR:	Sean’s doing more I think, but yes Catherine our producer has been leading on most of it.
MICHELE:	Catherine’s been leading?
ELEANOR:	Yes.
MICHELE:	How has that process been?  How has it been to have that company, a really mixed company, knowing disabled people, neurodivergent people, disabled people.  How has that been to have that company at Stratford East rehearsing that show?  Brand new show written by Samson Hawkins.  I’m really excited to see it.  How has that been?
SEAN:	Yes, I think it’s been great so far, and it has been exciting for us, for the reasons you just said really because this is the first new piece of work that Ramps has done with an autistic writer and actually in some respects it’s smaller than previous Ramps shows in that there are six actors and the focus is on learning disability and neurodivergence.  But saying that, the rest of the team I think is just as big, it’s huge.  We’ve got four disabled creative associates working in sound, lighting and costume props and associate director which is great.  It’s been, it’s been great and it is such a bonkers play that is so outrageous, that is so raucous that will really challenge audiences in many different ways and I think that’s where the main excitement has come from for me, and to see how audiences will react.  On top of all the standard learnings of a project that you have anyway.  It’s been like this fab puzzle and just trying to put these pieces together has been great.
MICHELE:	That’s brilliant.  I mean from what I hear, the word play doesn’t do it justice.
SEAN:	I can’t explain how outrageous this play is, and part of my excitement will be seeing how audiences react to disabled actors saying some of these lines and how audiences will feel is, is going to be great.
ELEANOR:	Definitely one of those plays that makes you laugh a lot, but also makes you feel really uncomfortable what you’re laughing at.  But yes, I think it’s going to be fabulous.
[00:20:01]
SEAN:	But I think the beauty in it for me is, it never punches down.  The comedy never, never yes, never punches down to people.  And that’s the key, I think.  That’s why it works for me.
ELEANOR:	I think the other thing that, I mean this is not something Sean or I have been massively involved in, but I think it’s been really nice for us as an organisation working with Samson over creating a new play, so absolutely we are now working with a cast with a number of different disabilities within it, but actually we’ve been working, as Sean said with a writer who is autistic over a really long period of time and going through that process and thinking how can we, I think it’s made us think about what that script development process is, I guess.  We had you know a workshop quite early on, and that’s been, and also thinking about what the needs of a writer are I guess as well, which again is something new for the Ramps learning.
MICHELE:	Am I right that this is Samson’s first show to be produced?  Is that right?
SEAN:	Yes, I think it’s his first full length play.  I believe.  And I was just thinking as well, something off the back of that.  What’s been fun has been, in the rehearsal room there’s a whole box of sensory toys and actually, everyone is using them because they are very useful and that’s just good fun to see.  And people have said, “Oh can we have some more of them.”  They’re sort of like wiggly worms.  “Some more of them sensory toys.”  So that’s been fun learning.
MICHELE: 	And I’m imagining, Eleanor you talk about thinking about the process of working with a writer and I’m imagining that you’re not actually talking about the process of working with a neurodivergent writer or working with a disabled writer, you’re talking way more generally about okay, this is making us think about just how we work with writers.
ELEANOR:	Yes, absolutely.  And I think that’s what’s so interesting is it makes, when we are looking at someone’s needs, who has needs because of their autism in this case, for Samson, it then makes you question other things as well, about how we generally work.  And actually, there are definitely things I think that we should be changing and looking at that would make life, you know would a) make us more accessible for any disabled writer, but also, more generally make us more accessible for anyone. And I think time is a really big part of that.
MICHELE:	Yes, that comes up so frequently.
ELEANOR:	It does come up, and it’s not cheap because inevitably you’re there, but you know I think it, and we’ve had this on, I think on other shows in a perhaps more negative way where we have, because we’ve programmed it quite far in advance, had quite short timescales and then have worked with disabled artists and then actually the pressure that’s put on them hasn’t really been fair and we’re already tied into that for some extent, but actually I think that’s, it’s definitely thinking that we need to do longer term.
MICHELE:	I love to hear that.  I love, hearing that from you and I love hearing that or similar or equivalent things from other Ramps partners, well and other organisations generally, because I think there’s such a big trap in just going to that place of, “Well that’s the way the industry is.  That’s the way the industry works.”  Or, “That’s the way we’ve always done it.”  I remember talking with someone in a training institution and the argument was, “Well we have to work with our students in this way because this is what they’re going to get when they go out into the industry.”  And just feeling so kind of demoralised by that argument because, well then can we not think that perhaps the industry needs to shift a bit?
SEAN:	Yes, that’s when you realise that the structures of the industry are the issue and that we’re all learning it from a very early age in our careers and structures are there to be taken down.
MICHELE:	Oh, that’s anarchic.  A bit of [unclear 00:23:45] there from Sean.  I mean it is interesting though, isn’t it because what you’re talking about there is ableism.  We’re talking about essentially ableist structures which is the exact reason I have an issue with the word inclusion.  Because why would I, as a disabled person, simply want you to include me in a system and a structure that is ableist?  Instead of actually questioning and bringing down that structure and replacing it with something that works for more people.  I think that kind of hits the nail on the head doesn’t it?  Of what, some of what we’re about.
SEAN:	Yes, I think that’s a great point and that’s part of the great thing about the Ramps consortium that, when we undergo disability inequality training and you Michele to teach us about the social model of disability and essentially it completely re-trains your brain into how you think about disability and how you talk about disability and that was kind of an eye-opening, lightbulb moment for a lot of people and it’s that when you can start analysing the structures that we’re in and start dismantling them to then re-build something better.
MICHELE:	Yes, absolutely Sean.  And the social model isn’t just eye-opening for non-disabled, hearing, neurotypical people, it’s really transformative for disabled people.  And most of the disabled people that I know myself included, we divide our lives into two parts, before knowing about the social model and after knowing about the social model.  And we will do an episode that is just doing a really, really close look at what the social model is, so look out for that one.  I just want to come back to, Sean you mentioned disabled associates.  Eleanor, can you explain to us what an associate is in that context?
ELEANOR:	I’m actually going to pass back to Sean, because Sean has done much more closer work with our disabled associates.
MICHELE:	Okay.
SEAN:	Yes, so the disabled associate roles, they work with the sort of lead designer of that department.  So we learn from them, so for example we’ve got Rachel whose our associate on props and costumes whose working with this designer, Lilly Arnold and so they all learn from Lilly about designing you know like a mid scale tour and really getting into how we create shows and how, how they tour and developing their craft because there’s such a, a lack of disabled creatives out there, I would say and where, where there’s increases in disabled representation among performers, we’re not seeing that in the creative field and we’re not seeing that, particularly in production and technical sides of theatre.  I would say, interestingly what I’m noticing is an increase in understanding of neurodivergence across all fields, but what we wanted to do with the associate role is was it was all open hire so we, this was open recruitment as it were.  So usually on shows a designer will pick their associate or they have an associate that they work with frequently.  With this we, because it’s been open we’ve had an influx of people that we’ve never worked with and that the creatives have never worked with.  And it’s also great because we’ve had people all over the UK apply, rather than like a London centric view which has been great.
MICHELE:	So is it fair to say that the associate role and ensuring that there are associate roles is about opening up an opportunity for disabled people to learn their craft in a way that isn’t necessarily going through those formal systems that we might expect?
SEAN:	Yes, definitely.  It’s practical experience that they’re picking up.  It’s, and then because the show is on tour, they will take the show on tour and ensure that the show is ready in the tour venues.  So they actually have genuine responsibility as well and they’re kind of an integral part of the creative team and the show itself.
MICHELE:	Nice.
ELEANOR:	And I think just add to that, where we use associates because we don’t have as many usually, associates on the show as we do for this, but we always have for example, an assistant director or sometime another associate role, and they’re always aimed to be targeted at people who are under-represented in some way in the theatre industry.  But it’s a really helpful way of giving people mid-scale experience because quite a lot of them might have done something in a studio or might have done something in Fringe, but actually moving into a mid-scale and a tour is quite a big step up, so it’s quite a kind of practical way of them [unclear 00:28:27] kind of learning their craft but without having initial pressure of, “Here’s a strict commission on a massive stage.”  So it’s quite a good stepping stone.
MICHELE:	Right.  Yes I see.  Sounds brilliant.  And, in what other ways are you encouraging disabled people into creative roles, performance roles, off stage roles, backstage roles?  In what other ways at Stratford East are you encouraging disabled people into your wider workforce, would you say?
ELEANOR:	I mean I think generally we are, I mean Sean touched on kind of using open hire and I think we’re trying to do a bit more of that anyway into our creative roles.  I think often generally how you get a creative role is a bit of a closed, you know it’s often has been in the past knowing the right people and I think more generally we’re trying to combat that.  I think we’re also, I mean we’ve changed our recruitment processes as well over the last couple of years to make them more accessible.  Again, really broadly but just really simple things like, you can apply by making us a video, you don’t have to write it down.  So I think generally we’re trying to reach a wider, and looking also where we advertise, how we reach out.  And that is, I think, sort of all of our roles and again making sure that people’s access needs are built into the recruitment process from when they first see the advert through to when they come for an interview.  Just doing simple things sometimes like sending out questions in advance.  Just doing things that make people more comfortable with us as an organisation and feel like we will be an organisation who will support them.  It’s always interesting, people say, “I didn’t even know I could ask for that.”  And it’s like we need to make you feel that you can.  So I think that’s been a big part of it.  I think also, again touched on this earlier, but having conversations early on with directors that are coming in to say, well think about your casting, thinking about casting directors who’ve got really good networks with disabled performers.  Sean, anything else?
[00:30:20]
SEAN:	Well similarly, we actively try and go and see more work by disabled artists and we work with our agent for change, Ashling and they recommend stuff from time to and, and we also keep our eyes open for what work is out there and whose creating what.  There was a fab show recently at the Barbican called Perfect Show for Rachel by Zuccho which was brilliant.  And then on top of that, we also have launched a membership scheme, Abstract Theatres called the Freelance Royalty Scheme and it’s essentially for arts freelancers based in the East.
ELEANOR:	East London I should say.
SEAN:	 East London yes, the East.  And it’s a free membership and you can be any practice in the arts and any experience level and we run things like free workshops, we run free residency support weeks.  We give out free rehearsal space and within that, some of the workshops we run are sometimes geared towards developing inclusive practice or how to create an access rider, we’ve got one coming up with V J Patel running that.  And so there’s lots of different ways that we’re engaging disabled freelancers to run workshops to spread their knowledge but also making it part of the conversation and part of the offer so that members are aware that accessibility related stuff exists and is out there and should be part of people’s practice.
MICHELE:	And that links back to what you were saying earlier, doesn’t it Sean?  About just a growing sense in the industry amongst independent practitioners that these are the sorts of conversations that should be happening.   So you’re plugging into that, you’re helping grow that awareness.  And I really like to hear from both of you.  I really like that sense of responsibility.  It’s not about, “Well we’re okay with you telling us what you need so it’s up to you to tell us what you need.”  it’s, “We’re okay with you telling us what you need.  We’re willing to put our money where our mouth is and do whatever we can as far as we can to meet that need.  But crucially it’s up to us to make sure you know it’s okay to ask.”  And that for me, is often a missing piece and it’s because, it’s because organisations are not thinking about disability within a historical context.  And I mean that kind of historical as in decades and years and generations, but I mean it also historical in the sense of, and the example I always use is, if I come to your box office at quarter past seven on a Friday night to see a show that started at 7:30, I’ve probably already encountered that day 75 barriers and I’ve had enough.  So if I see anything in your theatre, whatever theatre that might be that smacks even slightly of a barrier, it’s going to really piss me off.  And it’s about you understanding that context, that this is about me as a member of a marginalised, oppressed, discriminated against group.  Oh sorry, that was a bit of a hobby horse wasn’t it?  But I just think it’s really important.
ELEANOR:	Yes, and I think one of the things for us here is that we talk more, rather than talking about inclusion we’ve begun to talk more about belonging and this being a place for, particularly our local community.  They feel like they, that it belongs to them and that they belong to.  And I think it is our role as a kind of civic hub, I’m going to use really fancy language, but an open door that it is our job to find ways to make sure that everyone feels this is for them.
MICHELE:	That’s so brilliant.
ELEANOR:	That’s our responsibility.
MICHELE:	That’s so brilliant.  Because I can be included by an organisation, but not really belong there.  And the phrase that I often find myself using is that in recent years, I may no longer be on the outside looking in but I may well be on the inside looking on.  And that belonging word, I think that’s genius.
ELEANOR:	I don’t think we’re there yet and we, you know, we’ve got a long, long way to go on it, but I think it’s something that we feel really is important to who we should be.
MICHELE:	Well it’s, to use a cliché, that is a journey not a destination, isn’t it?  Seems to me anyway.
ELEANOR:	Yes, and I think because also people’s needs change and because people are getting better at articulating it, there will always be more that we can do and more that we learn.
MICHELE:	Yes.  But if that notion of belonging is there ahead of you, that’s where you’re headed.  That’s got to be a really, really positive, positive aspect to what it is that you’re offering and you’re seeking to be, along with that responsibility and I love that you’ve talked about responsibility as much as you have.  So is there, is there other key learning that you would identify around these sorts of areas?  You’ve talked about so much already but I do want to give you an opportunity if there’s anything you haven’t yet had a chance to, to talk about.  By the way, before we do that and while you’re thinking about that, Sean could you just really quickly describe for us what an access rider is because I’m really aware that it’s a phrase we use a lot.  How do you understand what an access rider is?
SEAN:	Good question.  In it’s, I suppose most basic form maybe, access rider to me is a document that traditionally I suppose a disabled person but increasingly non-disabled people and everyone who has a job or accesses things.  It’s a document that that person completes which outlines the requirements, their requirements in order to do their job.  And that can be down to things such as, “I need things printed on yellow paper.”  Or, “I need communication at least three days before.”  Let’s say a shopping list of things that they need that they’re happy to disclose.
MICHELE:	Great, thank you.  And it isn’t, is it, my understanding is, that it isn’t ever justifying those needs.  It’s just -
SEAN:	No, absolutely not.  It’s, “I need this.  Please give me this.” 
MICHELE:	Brilliant, thank you.  So yes, back to that question then.  Any other learning that you’d like to mention?
SEAN:	I think for me, it’s interesting talking about journeys and destinations because I think it is just one continuous journey.  I don’t know whether a destination as such ever exists or whether it’s just several different destinations on the way.  Because this is something that is always going to carry on and develop and progress and at points I imagine regress and then progress again, because that is just the way that these things seem to happen.  Whether that’s talking about gender identity, disability, race.  It’s a continuous journey and I think we need to be open to having those conversations and not being afraid of it.  Because the moment we get afraid and stop talking is when things go wrong.
MICHELE:	Yes.
ELEANOR:	And, I think for me and it really links to that, that we keep talking thing, I think one of the things that for me is so valuable about this journey and has been a real learning, is that it is better to articulate something and get it wrong than not articulate it.  But it’s better to have the discussion that you’re nervous about because you don’t know if you’ve got the right words, but it’s better to try and have the discussion and say to someone, “I might get this wrong, can you help me?”  Than to shy away from it.  And I think one of my fears I guess, is in this very responsive social media world, where if you get something slightly wrong you can have people down on you like a tonne of bricks is that I think increasingly, people are getting more scared of having the conversation because they don’t want to be pilloried for saying slightly the wrong thing.   People absolutely need to be careful with their language and what they’re saying, but I think the – I would hate to see conversations, and people not trying things, because they’re too scared to get things wrong.
MICHELE:	Yes.
ELEANOR:	And you know, sometimes with all the best will in the world, you can’t meet everyone’s access riders and that maybe genuinely because of the physicality of your building and there are things that you can’t change, or that there might be sometimes conflicting needs in the team and you have to try and find a way through, but you still want to work with those people and try and make it work in the best way, and I think Sean’s point about the end part being a de-brief is really important because there’s so much learning that comes out of it.  But it’s better to try and get it slightly wrong and then make it better next time, than not try at all.
MICHELE:	Yes.
SEAN:	I’d also I think add to that, in specifically with Ramps on the Moon and disability, it’s essential that disabled people in the most diverse sense are also leading the conversation and part of the conversation.  I think there’s, you know, fear with any marginalised groups that there are marginalised within the marginalised as it were, and so the intersectionality of that and making sure that people’s views I suppose, are heard across that group and that kind of informs what happens next.
MICHELE:	Yes.  Brilliant.  What a great note to finish on.  And there’s loads more we could explore within that, but I love that notion of the journey and the destination.  There maybe lots of destinations on the way and it’s the journey that’s important.  It’s a heck of a ride, isn’t it?  Yes, I mean it’s just great to have Theatre Royal Stratford East on the Ramps ride with us, so brilliant.  Eleanor, Sean, thank you so much for sharing some of your views, some of your learning, some of your perspectives and lots and lots of your wisdom, both of you.  Thank you.
SEAN:	Thank you.
ELEANOR:	Thank you.
MICHELE:	Thank you for listening.  You can contact me through the link in the show notes.  Or through our website RampsontheMoon.co.uk.  Ramps on the Moon is funded by Arts Council England and is made up of six mainstream theatres; Birmingham Rep, Leeds Playhouse, Nottingham Playhouse, the New Wolsey Theatre in Ipswich, Sheffield Theatres and Theatre Royal Stratford East and our associated, Wiltshire Creative and the Regional Theatre Young Director Scheme.  This podcast is the copyright of Ramps on the Moon.  Ramps on the Moon cannot be held responsible for any mistakes or omissions.  This podcast is made for entertainment purposes.  And finally, we’d like to thank our friends at podtalk.co.uk for producing this podcast.
[Audio ends: 00:41:01]

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